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Month 3, Day 17, 5 ABY, 12:17 AM

Time for the gun talk again


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#1
Cthulhuvong

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I'm so sick of trying to convince people of the problems with this issue that I'm just going to post a video and say that "white males need to police their own better" (as so many say about minorities and gun violence):

 


NOTICE: IF I MAKE A POST IN THE OTHERS BOARD DO NOT TAKE IT AS SERIOUS COMMANDMENTS FROM ON HIGH (those usually come in the Game News area)
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Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded.
~Chairman Sheng-ji Yang, The Human Hive, Alpha Centauri
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It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error
~US Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson, 1950
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Always remember that the crowd that applauds your coronation is the same crowd that will applaud your beheading. People like a show.
~Going Postal, Sir Terry Pratchett
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History does not record anywhere a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help.
~Lazarus Long, in Time Enough for Love by Robert A. Heinlein

 


#2
Amorn

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Black people and Mexicans don't shoot people?
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#3
Shadows

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Like many democratic senators, cvong approves of the politicization of the death of people. But I guess it makes sense, since the rates of people wanting gun control only goes up drastically during the emotionally fueled aftermath of these tragedies, and goes back to more or less even when people start using reason and logic again.
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#4
Potestas

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"White males need to police their own"

Lol Yes cause we are of a huge hive mind. Hey other whites would you like to accompany me to the Abercrombie convention? Ill swipe my privilege card and get it all for free. This quote is dumber than a football bat.
"Man plans, God laughs."

"You should do your duty in all things. You can never do more, you should never wish to do less."
-Robert E. Lee

"Behind every gun sight is a human being.
We are those people. If history only remembers one in a thousand of us, then the future will be filled with stories of who we were and what we did. But until that day comes, we will stand. We will look death in the eye and we will fight."

“In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it.”
– Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

#5
K.H.

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With the number of mass shootings becoming more frequent and more deadly each year, it looks like we have a few more decades to go before any legislation can get passed. I would estimate that according to the frequency and severity of mass shootings, by about 2050 there will be so many high profile mass killings a year that the time between mass shootings will be short enough for maybe a universal background check law, or even funding for mental health to pass. Most people who survive mass shootings or have a loved one killed in a mass shooting, will become an advocate for gun control, while most Americans do not care unless it effects them directly. So when the number of people directly affected by mass shootings eclipses the number of members of the NRA, you might see a shift in policy. One externality one must consider is that the demand for guns goes up just after a mass shooting, because the NRA gets their members all stirred up. That puts more guns in the hands of people, which therefore increases the likeliness of more mass shootings. Therefore the graph might begin a exponential increase, and actually hasten gun control legislation.

 

However, I do agree this is no time to talk about gun control. Not enough people were killed, plus the Republicans control the House, Senate, and White House. That is just the sad reality of it all. We are all going to die, it just happens that in America we like shooting each other.  


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#6
Cthulhuvong

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"White males need to police their own"

Lol Yes cause we are of a huge hive mind. Hey other whites would you like to accompany me to the Abercrombie convention? Ill swipe my privilege card and get it all for free. This quote is dumber than a football bat.

What? thats what is always said when a black person kills another "you need to police your own". But when one white kills 50+ others its not white people's job to do the same? Seems either hypocritical or racist. Or both.


"Like many democratic senators, cvong approves of the politicization of the death of people."

You mean like the politicization of 9/11 to drive us into a war in Afghanistan despite the Taliban saying they'd give up Osama's location to us? Or the politicization of the 3000+ dead on that day to invade Iraq? "Saddam is giving WMDs to terrorists like Al Queda and has even met with them" was one of the lines being peddled. Or the NRA politicizing mass shootings by saying we need MORE guns, despite study after study showing that more people with guns leads to more injury and death not less (and the multiple scenarios where people with loaded firearms have fled active shooters rather than engaged)? Or using the "rise in violent homicides" (despite it actually falling since the 90s) to give police more powerful weapons, more of them, and armored vehicles?

Why is it only ok to politicize it when a brown or black person does it, but wrong when its a white man carrying out the largest mass shooting in american history?


NOTICE: IF I MAKE A POST IN THE OTHERS BOARD DO NOT TAKE IT AS SERIOUS COMMANDMENTS FROM ON HIGH (those usually come in the Game News area)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded.
~Chairman Sheng-ji Yang, The Human Hive, Alpha Centauri
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error
~US Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson, 1950
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Always remember that the crowd that applauds your coronation is the same crowd that will applaud your beheading. People like a show.
~Going Postal, Sir Terry Pratchett
----------------------------------------------------------------------
History does not record anywhere a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help.
~Lazarus Long, in Time Enough for Love by Robert A. Heinlein

 


#7
Shadows

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How many of those examples are on the day of?

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#8
Redbirdfan

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The basic example is: if you're pro-firearms, its ok - but don't make it you're pro 2nd Amendment.  Don't make it pro-Constitution.  Its the same argument about people that are "pro-life".  No, you're really not.  You're pro birth.  If someone was pro-life they would be for a better health care system, better programs for families in need, better programs for underprivileged children such as food assistance.  That is what pro-life is.

 

So, being "pro-firearms" doesn't mean you're for the 2nd Amendment or the Constitution.  Which is fine, but don't piss on me and tell me it's raining.

 

Because, the truth of the matter - the 2nd Amendment (A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed) was in an era before....

 

Boston PD: 1838 (Modeled After the London Metro PD)

NYC PD: 1845

Philadelphia PD: 1841 ("Officially" 1754, but in reality it wasn't a full day/night armed force until 1841)

National Guard: 1903/1933 ("Officially" 1600s, but thats not the National Guard at all)

 

The 2nd Amendment was created so that a "Continental Army" (Federal Force) couldn't overcome a local Militia (National Guard).  It wasn't created so a guy can buy 20 Semi- (And Auto- if he's got the tax stamps) Rifles.

 

 I mean, hell man, you've only got two arms.



#9
Shadows

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To KH...

I'd bet we will see universal background checks within five years, or sooner. That is something that's swinging to the "for" side even for the majority of gun owners. Mental health will take longer, though its less about public opinion and more about privacy laws. Even the mentally ill have rights to privacy after all.

To RBF...

I'm sure logical arguenents could be made about peoples first amendment rights eclipsing the original intention too. After all, anyone can speak to thousands of people from their toilet if they want to, and speech can be very damaging as well. Taking away ANY rights is a slippery slope, which is why I understand the NRAs don't give an inch strategy even if I think it's stupid.

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#10
Potestas

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What? thats what is always said when a black person kills another "you need to police your own". But when one white kills 50+ others its not white people's job to do the same? Seems either hypocritical or racist. Or both.
"Like many democratic senators, cvong approves of the politicization of the death of people."
You mean like the politicization of 9/11 to drive us into a war in Afghanistan despite the Taliban saying they'd give up Osama's location to us? Or the politicization of the 3000+ dead on that day to invade Iraq? "Saddam is giving WMDs to terrorists like Al Queda and has even met with them" was one of the lines being peddled. Or the NRA politicizing mass shootings by saying we need MORE guns, despite study after study showing that more people with guns leads to more injury and death not less (and the multiple scenarios where people with loaded firearms have fled active shooters rather than engaged)? Or using the "rise in violent homicides" (despite it actually falling since the 90s) to give police more powerful weapons, more of them, and armored vehicles?
Why is it only ok to politicize it when a brown or black person does it, but wrong when its a white man carrying out the largest mass shooting in american history?


Again you generalize an entire race off the words of some people. The hypocrisy of leftists is unfathomable. Seeing people as responsible for an atrocity for the simple reason that they share the same skin color is disgusting. The only real racism in this is that you are grouping an entire race/gender in with a mentally unhinged person. Your words portray hatred and bigotry on an incredible level and shows just how radicalized the left is becoming.
"Man plans, God laughs."

"You should do your duty in all things. You can never do more, you should never wish to do less."
-Robert E. Lee

"Behind every gun sight is a human being.
We are those people. If history only remembers one in a thousand of us, then the future will be filled with stories of who we were and what we did. But until that day comes, we will stand. We will look death in the eye and we will fight."

“In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it.”
– Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

#11
Redbirdfan

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To KH...

I'd bet we will see universal background checks within five years, or sooner. That is something that's swinging to the "for" side even for the majority of gun owners. Mental health will take longer, though its less about public opinion and more about privacy laws. Even the mentally ill have rights to privacy after all.

To RBF...

I'm sure logical arguenents could be made about peoples first amendment rights eclipsing the original intention too. After all, anyone can speak to thousands of people from their toilet if they want to, and speech can be very damaging as well. Taking away ANY rights is a slippery slope, which is why I understand the NRAs don't give an inch strategy even if I think it's stupid.

 

 

The Bill of Rights is hard to really get into in it's current form.  After being suggested, there is evidence (loads of it) that it went through thousands of alterations.  Madison argued that most of it's intent was for protection of civil rights.  So do with that what you will.  All I can say is that there are checks against free speech - you can't threaten anyone.  On the flip side, I could go out and buy a flamethrower.  

 

On the other side, I think people doing nothing other than saying "pray for" are full of shit.  Im really just going through my FB unfollowing/unfriending all along that line.  If it was that important, they would do something - anything.  I was In the blood donor area for the Orlando Shooting (I am "O Neg") and donated.  People can donate money to relief funds for services of the dead or to a recovery fund to those wounded.  Even if the person is truly religious, the belief is god helps those who help themselves.  So instead of praying, go do something about it.

 

And problems are hard to solve.  Thats why they are problems.  To be like "Aw, geez.  This is a hard problem.  Lets pray for Vegas or whoever" and avoid doing anything about the problem.... is incredibly cowardly 



#12
Shadows

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I fully agree with the part about "prayers" and "thoughts." It's a crock of shit to make people feel better about themselves.

 

To the first... you mean it's illegal to use your right of free speech to threaten or do harm? And that's good enough?


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#13
Cthulhuvong

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Again you generalize an entire race off the words of some people. The hypocrisy of leftists is unfathomable. Seeing people as responsible for an atrocity for the simple reason that they share the same skin color is disgusting. The only real racism in this is that you are grouping an entire race/gender in with a mentally unhinged person. Your words portray hatred and bigotry on an incredible level and shows just how radicalized the left is becoming.

Ok, since you seem to be too dense, let me explain it for you in simple words: I was trying to show the hypocrisy of conservatives who tell black communities to "police their own" when shooting happen in their neighborhoods, but who are strangely silent when a white man shoots into a mostly white crowd. If thats too complex, I'm sorry but I don't have time to dumb it down anymore.

Shadows, its illegal to use your free speech in many ways. And your freedom of the press. And your freedom of religion. The first amendment has been riddled with holes for decades, and most of it is sensible (can't lie in court, can't cause a panic just because, cannot lie in public just to impune character, etc). But if we bring the laws back to pre-2008, when the supreme decided for the first time that it meant "everyone who wants a gun gets a gun", it was until that point only about ownership for the "common defense" (US vs Miller, 1939). It was only through the decades of work by the members of the Federalist Society (people like former Justice Scalia, current Justice Gorsuch, and even current Senator Ted Cruz) have they pushed the 'constructionist' view that we should interpret the constitution as when it was written, which would mean things like blacks are 3/5th a person and only white males over 20 who own land may vote. 

 

If you're going to argue that this is about you using your arms for the common defense, we can have that argument. But if you're going to say this is how it has always been, you're wrong. As wrong as if you said "Americans have always had circumcisions for their babies" (the inventor of Kellogg's corn flakes believed them and circumcision would stop people from masturbating and so pushed them both at the turn of the century, fun fact for you on why your wee wee has no sleeve).


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NOTICE: IF I MAKE A POST IN THE OTHERS BOARD DO NOT TAKE IT AS SERIOUS COMMANDMENTS FROM ON HIGH (those usually come in the Game News area)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded.
~Chairman Sheng-ji Yang, The Human Hive, Alpha Centauri
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error
~US Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson, 1950
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Always remember that the crowd that applauds your coronation is the same crowd that will applaud your beheading. People like a show.
~Going Postal, Sir Terry Pratchett
----------------------------------------------------------------------
History does not record anywhere a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help.
~Lazarus Long, in Time Enough for Love by Robert A. Heinlein

 


#14
Sam Baxter

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What is this? Another gun control debate?

 

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#15
Shadows

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Ok, since you seem to be too dense, let me explain it for you in simple words: I was trying to show the hypocrisy of conservatives who tell black communities to "police their own" when shooting happen in their neighborhoods, but who are strangely silent when a white man shoots into a mostly white crowd. If thats too complex, I'm sorry but I don't have time to dumb it down anymore.

Shadows, its illegal to use your free speech in many ways. And your freedom of the press. And your freedom of religion. The first amendment has been riddled with holes for decades, and most of it is sensible (can't lie in court, can't cause a panic just because, cannot lie in public just to impune character, etc). But if we bring the laws back to pre-2008, when the supreme decided for the first time that it meant "everyone who wants a gun gets a gun", it was until that point only about ownership for the "common defense" (US vs Miller, 1939). It was only through the decades of work by the members of the Federalist Society (people like former Justice Scalia, current Justice Gorsuch, and even current Senator Ted Cruz) have they pushed the 'constructionist' view that we should interpret the constitution as when it was written, which would mean things like blacks are 3/5th a person and only white males over 20 who own land may vote. 

 

If you're going to argue that this is about you using your arms for the common defense, we can have that argument. But if you're going to say this is how it has always been, you're wrong. As wrong as if you said "Americans have always had circumcisions for their babies" (the inventor of Kellogg's corn flakes believed them and circumcision would stop people from masturbating and so pushed them both at the turn of the century, fun fact for you on why your wee wee has no sleeve).

 

Except that your two examples were overturned... by other amendments... when was the 2nd amendment overturned by another amendment?

 

Also, people in my family have owned guns for self defense for decades, so it wasn't just after 2008. Sure, more conservative groups may have changed our view more recently, but the you worded it makes it seem like you're saying that it changed everything. I'm sure all the states except CA, IL, NY, and a few other liberal paradises would disagree with that. Unless of course I misunderstood your point.

 

My point about the first amendment was that it's already illegal to misuse your rights. It's generally illegal to simply kill someone.


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#16
Srip

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SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED



#17
Potestas

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Ok, since you seem to be too dense, let me explain it for you in simple words: I was trying to show the hypocrisy of conservatives who tell black communities to "police their own" when shooting happen in their neighborhoods, but who are strangely silent when a white man shoots into a mostly white crowd. If thats too complex, I'm sorry but I don't have time to dumb it down anymore.
Shadows, its illegal to use your free speech in many ways. And your freedom of the press. And your freedom of religion. The first amendment has been riddled with holes for decades, and most of it is sensible (can't lie in court, can't cause a panic just because, cannot lie in public just to impune character, etc). But if we bring the laws back to pre-2008, when the supreme decided for the first time that it meant "everyone who wants a gun gets a gun", it was until that point only about ownership for the "common defense" (US vs Miller, 1939). It was only through the decades of work by the members of the Federalist Society (people like former Justice Scalia, current Justice Gorsuch, and even current Senator Ted Cruz) have they pushed the 'constructionist' view that we should interpret the constitution as when it was written, which would mean things like blacks are 3/5th a person and only white males over 20 who own land may vote. 
 
If you're going to argue that this is about you using your arms for the common defense, we can have that argument. But if you're going to say this is how it has always been, you're wrong. As wrong as if you said "Americans have always had circumcisions for their babies" (the inventor of Kellogg's corn flakes believed them and circumcision would stop people from masturbating and so pushed them both at the turn of the century, fun fact for you on why your wee wee has no sleeve).


Hey now pump the brakes on the bitch train. No, I know what you're saying. I'm just saying that the ideal you're driving is racist and disgusting. I was being fairly nice and engaging in a debate but if you want to be a little prick about it we can do that too.

Individual people are responsible for their own actions. Guns arent responsible, assholes with guns are. Guns can equally be used for good. Theres the quick debate for ya.
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"Man plans, God laughs."

"You should do your duty in all things. You can never do more, you should never wish to do less."
-Robert E. Lee

"Behind every gun sight is a human being.
We are those people. If history only remembers one in a thousand of us, then the future will be filled with stories of who we were and what we did. But until that day comes, we will stand. We will look death in the eye and we will fight."

“In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it.”
– Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

#18
K.H.

K.H.

I honestly can't see the 2nd Amendment holding up for another century, with the combination of a growing population and improvements in technology. It was written in the age of muskets, so it is already showing its age. Nobody wants to live in the hood, because there are so many shootings. But those are poor people and minorities that policy makers tend to turn a blind eye to. But the urban areas are going to keep growing, and the hood is going to get bigger, and more poor people are going to find themselves living next to the suburbs. Then people are going to start to care. Then if these armed minorities start shooting *gasp* rich white people, it will be a nail in the coffin. 

 

Then hopefully we get laws like they have in Switzerland, that more reflects the intentions of the Founding Fathers. I mean, our second amendment is an excellent deterrent to anyone trying to invade us. When our citizens have more guns than the armies of other countries, if anyone could get past our Air Force or Navy to actually invade. That's one thing we have on Rome. The barbarians would have a time raping and pillaging if every Roman had an AR-15. 



#19
Redbirdfan

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I fully agree with the part about "prayers" and "thoughts." It's a crock of shit to make people feel better about themselves.

 

To the first... you mean it's illegal to use your right of free speech to threaten or do harm? And that's good enough?

 

No.  I think hate speech needs to go to.  But it won't.  Because its about intent.  The bill of rights was created during a time when they wanted people to question their government, something the first amendment protects.  The second amendment was during a time when police forces didn't exist and militia's didn't exist outside of war.  

 

Again, it's impossible to delve too deep into the intent of centuries dead men.  There is some limited data about their intentions.  



#20
Potestas

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I gotta agree with the prayers thing too.
"Man plans, God laughs."

"You should do your duty in all things. You can never do more, you should never wish to do less."
-Robert E. Lee

"Behind every gun sight is a human being.
We are those people. If history only remembers one in a thousand of us, then the future will be filled with stories of who we were and what we did. But until that day comes, we will stand. We will look death in the eye and we will fight."

“In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it.”
– Field Marshal Erwin Rommel




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